Anyone using [SIP] VoIP systems?

[Lob Rockster]

as I've signed up for SIPGate, have a nice UK number and am now in the process of moving from x-lite software to a Linksys PAP2 adaptor connected to a phone.

I've discovered a reasonable amount of help for configuration on the web; I also believe that I might be able to set myself up to connect my Sky<cough>box to the thing should I need to...

I might also use the second line and connect to SIPCall here in Swissieland....cheaper calls too, of course.

Has anyone else done this already as I think it works but of course I have not tested it yet. Also I am not yet fixed on providers so frankly can be swayed to use other systems that're out there.

I also want to use a SIP-based system not <cough>proprietary</cough>Fleabay software phones

[mark]

I haven't used anything like this yet - but I'm interested. I don't really care about a UK number, but I'm interested in a provider in CH that allows you to port a number from Swisscom (or cablecom digital phone) to their network.

Here's what I'd like: 2 locations, both with cablecom digital phone. Except that the phone can't be unplugged and moved to a new location. Both locations have wireless. I'd like a handset that can talk 802.11b/g (wireless) to the net and connect to the service. Then it's simply a matter of taking that handset between home and work and the number follows you seamlessly between both locations!

Even though 20 francs per month for cablecom digitial phone is cheap, it might still be nice to get one that is almost free...

But the big disappointment with all of these really cheap services is that it is still not any cheaper to call mobile numbers from landlines, and this is what we spend a lot of time doing!

[Lob Rockster]

Mark - check out the SIPCall link - calls to mobile are significantly cheaper IIRC....you have to trigger the drop-down on the homepage...

[mark]

checked it out. First thing I noticed was that the scale on those graphs doesn't start at zero - pretty lame trick. Second thing was comparison was on daytime calls only. This saves them from mentioning that calls on the other providers in the evening are as low as 0.31 to mobiles - cheaper than them!

In fact, from cablecom digital phone to Swisscom mobile it's 0.35 all the time - i.e. not enough of a saving to create much of a wow factor. I think the problem is the inbound charges made by the networks - no voip provider can do anything about that.

I think the big breakthrough will come with scenarios like the one I mentioned above. Most of us spend most of our time at no more than 2 or 3 locations, what we actually need is for our number to follow us, not the be reachable in every single place. We could always have that number forward to our mobiles if we aren't in any of our normal locations... If more and more calls were treated and charged like landline calls instead of mobile calls the telcos would start to lose a fortune :-)

[Lob Rockster]

blissfully easy is what I can report; the voxilla.com creates a configuration that was downloaded into my PAP2 with a click - I only had to change DNS from Manual to DHCP and there I was, online. I even called myself.

Sipcall.ch rejected my application for a free account. I suspect this is down to it being a free account and thus they don't feel "an urge".

I did find a new site similar to comparis.ch - http://www.vergleiche.ch/ - and I am looking at the SIP VoIP providers there in order to get free calls in Switzerland to fixnet all the time. Maybe even free calls to certain countries too.....after all, I have a second line on my PAP2.

- there's my status

I'm thinking of trying http://www.switzernet.com/ for line 2 as they offer free calls into fixnet CH and also to landlines in UK and USA. This just about covers me

[mark]

Well I don't have a clue what you are banging on about, and what's this about a pap smear?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll figure it out and then tell us what we need to do to get a cool solution working

[Lob Rockster]

Cool solution? Ok....here's the skinny.

• Find a SIP/STUN VoIP provider. You might like an Aussie one so that they can call you on the cheap?
• Frig your browser with a public proxy from that country. I used a UK-based one and got myself a local number
• Get a Linksys PAP2 which supports 2 VoIP lines - using regular phones
• Connect the PAP2 [smear?] to your BB router
• Open ports on the router. More about that when I look at what I opened - UDP 5060 is one of quite a few
• Register an account on voxilla and hope that they have a configuration assistant for your provider which is inserted into the PAP2
• You're largely good-to-go....

[mark]

Your signature is getting a bit crowded...

Anyway, the pap smear has to have physical phones connected into it, right? What about my idea to have a wi-fi enabled phone, and to be able to transport it between two locations? Essentially this would require the pap2 and the phone to be integrated into one unit so that it could move...

Mark

[Lob Rockster]

I toyed with this:
http://www.sipgate.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=13
The issue with "roaming" would be having port-forwarding to the device. Fundamentally, it would work.....simply? Who knows...!

Netgear I think are also bringing a wifi-phone to the market which will work with Skype. Now I've avoided Skype because they have their own standard and more so because fleabay bought them.

The PAP2 only needs one phone connected to it - it bridges the gap between using x-lite on a PC and having the device above (or something similar) - and RJ11 connection is perfect for your existing analogue phones.

And the signature has been rolled-back due to the fact that I can't be bothered

[mark]

That product looks interesting.. I wonder how well it works? You'd need to have two base stations (for charging). But it basically looks like it has the features of the PAP built into it.

Now the only part which is irritating is that it looks like a brick and probably performs like one.

Agree with your comments about skype phones. I'm a big user of skype myself (when I am on the PC), but wouldn't really want to get involved with the whole skypein number thing. I've used skype-out a few times and the quality was not good...

Keep an eye out for similar products like this. It certainly makes for some interesting choices.

[meenakshi]

I considering a Siemens C450 IP to switch to VOIP. However, I do not want to be restricted to Skype and would like something that supports SIP in general. Was looking at Comparis for some cheap providers for SIP telephony. Anybody knows more about Switzernet & Swiss IP Com as they seem to be the cheapest?

[Lob Rockster]

I'd say use Skype "casually" and look for a proper SIP system.

vergleiche.ch has comparisons; also look at VoIP providers that are linked to other companies such giving you free on-net calls to their customers.

some also offer free calls to certain countries' fixnet numbers. And there seems to be a fine line between value for calls and value for monthly charges.

[dino]

I have been a long time Skype user, and passionately love the service.

As it happens, it is time to upgrade my cellphone, so I am thinking about getting one that has WiFi builtin. The thought of being able to use Skype to call, while lounging at home (or at Starbucks) is too good to be true... anyone done this already? I'm not even sure which cellphone models have a good WiFi facility... would appreciate any inputs/comments...

[Lob Rockster]

I think for a wifi-enabled phone, there's nothing much right now unless it's a WM2003 xscale device with Skype (does Skype work with WM5?).

The "proper" VoIP services would need a local SIP client manager on the device to allow you to connect and function via wifi.

There are wifi phones out there for using VoIP specifically; I think there's Skype and proper SIP phones for this.

I could never be passionate about being a supernode Google "skype supernode" and your passion will be needing the little blue pill

[Gav]

	Quote:	dino
	I have been a long time Skype user, and passionately love the service. As it happens, it is time to upgrade my cellphone, so I am thinking about getting one that has WiFi builtin. The thought of being able to use Skype to call, while lounging at home (or at Starbucks) is too good to be true... anyone done this already? I'm not even sure which cellphone models have a good WiFi facility... would appreciate any inputs/comments...

A mate got one with a PocketPC built in (it's the small model with slide out thumb-board). He tried the Skype client but I have to say when he tested it with a Skype-to-skype call to me, the results were not good. Lots of delay, echo and fading in and out. That was from his home wifi setup.

It could have been down to the fact that he was using a bluetooth headset at the same time as the wifi link. Also, he'd just got the phone and maybe hadn't got everything fine tuned.


I know that you can buy dedicated Skype wifi phones now but they are as pricy as a good mobile and considerably less flexible.

You could always consider a full-blown PDA for Skype use. Modern ones are very compact and have quite a bit of processing power.


Gav

[meenakshi]

	Quote:	dino
	I have been a long time Skype user, and passionately love the service. As it happens, it is time to upgrade my cellphone, so I am thinking about getting one that has WiFi builtin. The thought of being able to use Skype to call, while lounging at home (or at Starbucks) is too good to be true... anyone done this already? I'm not even sure which cellphone models have a good WiFi facility... would appreciate any inputs/comments...

I have been looking around for an VOIP phone that bypasses the PC completely. At the same time, didn't want to get tied in only to Skype as they use a proprietary protocol. Was strongly favouring a SIP phone based on open standards. Also, there is a lot of current & upcoming competition in the SIP space that the prices are lower than Skype and some good services also bundle free calls to landlines in quite a few European & North American countries. Free calling to land-lines and some mobile networks overseas is quiet a killer idea in my opinion.
The only one meeting the above requirements currently is the Siemens C450 IP. It is basically a dual mode phone:-
- A DECT cordless phone that connects to an analog PSTN line
- A cordless VOIP phone with a built-in SIP client manager
The problem with the VOIP mode is that it seems to be using the DECT technology to wirelessly communicate between the handset & the base station. The base-station has 2 inputs(analog & ethernet/IP/RJ-45 connected to the ADSL router)
Thus the handset is not truly WiFi as it relies on the base station to connect to the internet.
If I wanted a pure WiFI VOIP phone that can directly communicate with any wireless router, I might probably try a SmartPhone or PDA with built-in WiFi. Not sure if Symbian, Linux, PalmOS or Windows PocketPC would be the right way to go(?)
I am currently experimenting with some SIP calling services as the pricing and options are quite varied.
Any body tried SIPDiscount so far? ..I solicit other suggestions/recommendations with open arms.

[Lob Rockster]

For anyone looking to use a cellphone and make calls over VoIP using WiFi, you can apparently use the Nokia E-Series according to this article

[dino]

	Quote:	Lob Rockster
	For anyone looking to use a cellphone and make calls over VoIP using WiFi, you can apparently use the Nokia E-Series according to this article

okay.. i did go and get myself a Nokia E60 and I'm pretty satisfied with it.. so far!

Setting up SIP took about 12 hours of reading and educating myself, but I finally managed with SIPgate and can now amuse myself endlessly by calling friends in the next room and pretending that I am in London!

I also enjoy being able to check mail or the weather or a quick stock quote while lying in bed.

Now why isn't anyone offering free local numbers here a-la-sipgate ?
or are they ??

[Lob Rockster]

http://www.sipcall.ch/ are close to free but I think are choosy about their clients - they knocked me back.

Spend some money you tightwad

[dino]

	Quote:	Lob Rockster
	http://www.sipcall.ch/ are close to free but I think are choosy about their clients - they knocked me back. Spend some money you tightwad

Why would you want to spend any money when there's VOIPbuster?
just discovered the service, and it works on my Nokia E60 to boot!

I can call landlines in North America and in most of W Europe for free... yes thats 'FREE'. Downside? you do not get a number that can be called - as far as I can tell so far

anyone else having much luck with SIP??

[Lob Rockster]

You can have two versions of Sipcall.ch - one with a number that people can call (costs) and one without a number where you can make cheap/free calls.

Do read the information on those websites

[Deborah]

I briefly read through the previous posts and I must say that I don't understand the technology, but I wanted to throw my two cents in about the Vonage phone system. I signed up on line and had the router sent to a friend in the States who then mailed it to me. As far as I know they only deal with customers (presumably) in the US. We pay a flat fee of 24.00 USD a month for unlimited calls to the US---both to land lines and cell phones. You tell Vonage where you want your phone number location...we picked St. Louis since my son was attending school there. We were then given a St. Louis area phone number and my son could call us in Switzerland as if he was making a local, free call. My friends and family across the country can call us here as if they were calling St. Louis---and if they have unliimted long distance (as most people in the States do) then their calls to us are free. Vonage has expanded to include free calls to Canada, Ireland, Italy and they are adding new countries all the time. With these other counties you can only call land lines for free, not cell phones. My daughter lives in Florence and I can call her for free from Switzerland.

Vonage uses internet access and the router plugs in to any phone. I don't use my computer to talk, but a regular, cordless phone. Maybe this can help some of the expats who miss chatting with their mates. The best thing is that they can call you, too, and they don't have to have any special equipment or sign up for anything.

[dino]

	Quote:	Lob Rockster
	You can have two versions of Sipcall.ch - one with a number that people can call (costs) and one without a number where you can make cheap/free calls. Do read the information on those websites

I would.. if only they'd take the trouble to learn English !

Even so, I checked out their tariffs... not impressed at all.

[Lob Rockster]

	Quote:	Deborah
	<snipped quote about Vonage>

Deborah - did you take the discounted Vonage Linksys PAP2 device they sell too?

This makes it (the SIP gateway) super-cheap and pre-configured - very useful for an American or Canadian here (bar the power adaptor of course).

	Quote:	dino
	I would.. if only they'd take the trouble to learn English !

that's the spirit

[Deborah]

[quote=Lob Rockster]Deborah - did you take the discounted Vonage Linksys PAP2 device they sell too?

This makes it (the SIP gateway) super-cheap and pre-configured - very useful for an American or Canadian here (bar the power adaptor of course).


I wish I could speak with more knowledge about this, but we do have the Linksys broadband router with two phone plug. There is a computer store a block from my house so getting the adapter was easy and not too expensive. It has saved us a lot of money calling home. The funny part is when we get a wrong number from someone in the States and they have no idea they are talking to someone in Switzerland.

[Lob Rockster]

possibly for my own reference more than anything else.....this in theory will allow a 2-port SIP device to forward all incoming calls to its own other line.

I'm going to test this over the weekend as I am looking to go for a Swiss VoIP provider as well as a UK one...

[bnc]

I'm curious if you found a way to make this work like you want.

I think you and I are looking for the same thing: A single-phone system that allows friends and loved ones from far away to call us cheap and for us to call them. Naturally, that system must allow us to make all our normal local calls also.

Is it possible to get VoIP from a CH-based provider and ask them to place a local number (DID) in the UK? That way the UK folks could call into that one number which is really and extension of your CH VoIP service? Is there any CH providers offering DIDs in foreign countries?

Or, are there any CH VoIP providers that will provide the CH service and allow you to to add a DID to their service (e.g. you buy/lease the DID number in the UK and configure it to work with the CH provider as a second "virtual" number on your account?

Anyway, I would be very interested to hear if you could find a solution - via hardware or software...

Thanks,

B

[Deborah]

	Quote:	bnc
	I'm curious if you found a way to make this work like you want. I think you and I are looking for the same thing: A single-phone system that allows friends and loved ones from far away to call us cheap and for us to call them. Naturally, that system must allow us to make all our normal local calls also. Is it possible to get VoIP from a CH-based provider and ask them to place a local number (DID) in the UK? That way the UK folks could call into that one number which is really and extension of your CH VoIP service? Is there any CH providers offering DIDs in foreign countries? Or, are there any CH VoIP providers that will provide the CH service and allow you to to add a DID to their service (e.g. you buy/lease the DID number in the UK and configure it to work with the CH provider as a second "virtual" number on your account? Anyway, I would be very interested to hear if you could find a solution - via hardware or software... Thanks, B

When we first moved here and had the sysytem set up we were usuing SwissCom as the internet provider and I never had any problems. We now have Cable Com because it is a bit cheaper but I don't think the connection is as good. But the Vonage itself is terrific. We have three boxes. One from Cable Com, one for the wireless computer and one for the Vonage that we had sent over here from the States. These allow us to have a seperate Swiss phone, a seperate "American' phone, and a wireless laptop. With the Swiss phone we have a package that allows for local and international calls. My husband uses this to call New Zealand because the Swiss Com rates are cheaper than the Vonage rates for that country.
The Vonage "American" phone--which is its own hand held set---not connected to the computer---allows us (for a montly fee of 25.99 US) to call any US land line or cell phone for free and to call any land line in Canada, England, or Italy for free. Plus, anyone in the States who is calling that number calls us as if they are calling the US. So, if they have unlimited long distance (as most customers these days do) then they call me for free. If they don't have unlimited service, then they call us as if we are located in St. Louis. You can chose the area code you want so you could pick one that would be a local call for family or friends. Vonage also provides an automated voice mail system to keep and retrieve messages. I am thrilled and feel so fortunate to have something like this to be able to keep in touch. Now my friends don't hesitate to call me.
We also have Skype but I never use it.

[bnc]

Hi Deborah

That is a complete set-up! Thanks for the insight.

I have (been researching) a similar idea but with a kinda techy twist.... If you have a Swiss VoIP you can lease a number in many places in the world which will ring your local Swiss number through the Swiss VoIP provider. For example, from these companies:

http://www.voxbone.com/
http://www.callcentric.com/did/
or this list of DID providers
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/DID+Service+Providers

you can get a number in your desired country. Numbers cost about Eur/$ 5 per month and up. After securing the number, you can configure it so it will call into your Swiss VoIP account. Here are some instructions:

http://www.oreillynet.com/etel/blog/2006/11/howto_using_voxbone_to_get_loc.html

The instructions use GizmoProject as an VoIP provider, but it applies to any VoIP provider. In the end, what you have is a Swiss VoIP that handles all outgoing calls (CH, EU and RoW) hopefully at a decent price. Tied into the Swiss number is a number back "home" (local call for the caller) that will also ring the Swiss number.

At least I think it will work, but it is all theoretical (to me) at this point...

Now I need to find a Swiss VoIP provider with great quality/service (and a decent price) that will allow me to "port in" the number from Voxbone.

tbc...

B

[RSargeant]

Having browsed through this thread, I'd like to add my experiences, which seem quite different to those already mentioned. Some may find them useful.

We recently bought a new apartment, a little further away from Zürich than our previous place. In the old apartment we'd had an ISDN connection with a good number (i.e. ending in "00"), so our numbers ran 00 through 04. We'd allocated each of those individual numbers to family members and the fax so the phones rang differently depending on who the call was for.

Our new place was no longer in the 044 (Zürich) area and Swisscom told us we'd have to surrender those old numbers, known to family and friends worldwide and get a new 055 number. And if we wanted a "nice" number, it'd cost lots of money! Sigh... Time to think laterally.

I was sure that the Bacom had forced Swisscom to offer "number portability" and this proved correct. Basically you can retain your existing number but transfer it to Cablecom or any other alternative to Swisscom. Now comes the interesting bit - that includes SIP providers!

For the uninitiated SIP stands for "Session initiated protocol" and is the world open standard for Internet Telephony. Whilst we're talking standards, Skype is proprietory and not SIP compatible, so I ruled that out.

So now I had to find a SIP supplier and get some SIP phones. The second proved easy (for a tecchie!) I bought a FRITZ!Fon WLAN 7050 ADSL box. This wondrous device is basically an ADSL router, but with a lot of clever tricks. The best of these is the ability to connect any mix of your existing old phones, analogue or ADSL and make them SIP phones! So I could re-use my (expensive) Swisscom ISDN phone and my Siemens Gigaset ISDN cordless phones as well as my antique rotary dial phones and didn't have to buy new. Amazingly it even allows you to use ISDN phones on an ANALOGUE phone line, and still have all the nice ISDN features. It's configured using its own internal web server from an attached PC and has Ethernet, USB and Wireless (54 gig) connection possibilities. The version I bought here in Switzerland even has an English language web interface - important because it's quite a complex beast! Take care (ask me!) if you buy one - there are many different FRITZ! models and the ones sold in Germany don't work in Switzerland due to different standards!

I needed a new ADSL connection anyway and was not happy with my current supplier, so chose a new one that seemed to know something about SIP telephony. A complicated sequence of events then took place as follows.

I first ordered a simple analogue phone connection at the new address, received the number, and didn't give it out to anyone except my new ADSL supplier, from whom I ordered a fast ADSL link. One obviously needs a phone line to have ADSL unless you go with Cablecom, who I would not recommend.

On the day of the move, I called Swisscom and had them divert all calls to the new number, so that when the phone was disconnected in the old place, my temporarily connected analogue at least rang and we missed no calls. Obviously the cost of the diversion fell to me, but they were only local calls. Once that was done I cancelled the old connection so that the person moving in after me could have a phone, being very careful to tell Swisscom I wished to keep the number and account active and giving them the new address for the bills.

With me so far?

I then asked my new ADSL supplier for 5 SIP accounts, giving the 5 old 044 ISDN numbers, and asking for the form that has to be completed to "port" the numbers from Swisscom. I filled in the form and was informed Swisscom needed about 2 weeks to do the paperwork and the ports are done at the end of each month. Swisscom asked me several times if I really wanted to do this (YES!) and finally accepted my defection.

I then configured my FRITZ! box with all 5 SIP account details, so that as soon as the porting was done, the box would log in with my SIP account details and I'd be up and running.

And so it happened. I've had my FRITZ! running for about 6 months now and it's been faultless. We make and receive ALL our calls over IP and have honestly forgotton we're using IP telephony - it's that good! I took one of the 5 numbers/SIP accounts and unregistered it from the FRITZ and now use it with a "softphone" running on my laptop so I can make and receive calls using one of my home numbers whilst away on business - I recently used this from Singapore - no problems.

At the risk of making this even more complicated, Swisscom recently launched a "friends and family" scheme whereby for a small fixed monthly charge all calls from one fixnet number to several mobiles are free. Great - took that, programmed the FRITZ! to dial only calls to family mobiles over the Swisscom fixed connection instead of over VoIP and the household costs dropped dramatically. SIP calls are not free but are very cheap compared to Swisscom.

Another point that may be of interest to some is that the FRITZ! box can have multiple SIP accounts programmed into it, so you could theoretically have your UK number ported to SIP and continue using it in Switzerland in a similar way as I describe above. The FRITZ! can have some pretty complex rules about which outgoing number is used when you call different countries or numbers.

A peculiarity of VoIP is that can't be used to receive analogue fax. My provider neatly overcame that with a "Fax to PDF" service. My incoming faxes are now automatically converted to a PDF file and forwarded to my email account. I find this a great solution, as the few faxes I get are usually urgent and I see them quickly wherever I am. I still have my old fax hooked directly to my single Swisscom analogue line for outgoing use only.

I've deliberately not disclosed who my service/SIP provider is, because I've now become a reseller and get a tiny cut on all your VoIP bills, but I'm very willing to help anyone looking for a similar solution. Just PM me. You don't have to change your ADSL supplier either, although I find "mine" is excellent.

Please note this has NOTHING to do with Skype, which I repeat is proprietory. SIP is truly the future of telephony.

A lot of the satisfaction I've had from this is in achieving something that Swisscom said couldn't be done. My Swiss friends are quite surprised that they can still call me on my old Zürich numbers after we've moved to Schwyz!

RS